Classes or builds....

[pilf3r]

Let me ask you - what is a custom build? Is it a fighter wielding a sword and shield that is focused on dealing damage? Because you can do that now. And you can do Rogue that is focusing on crowd control rather than dealing damage or rogue that can stay away from melee and throw daggers at his enemies. You can do DPS cleric, although his primary role is healing and supporting his allies and you can do fighter who specializes on increasing the whole party's damage output and survivability rather than tanking directly or dealing damage. You can do all sorts of strange things with the current classes. Your problem seems to be that you lack the imagination to do so.

Your problem is that is that you lack the imagination to see what DnD is about. Even if 4E puts certain limits it has many many choices you can make even if you use a suggested build. A custom build is a build you "invent" depending on what your goal is. You can't really do that with suggested builds as the goals are chosen for you with only a very limited choice for variation.

Anyhoot I am not interested in discussing this with you or a few others like you that refuse to even try and understand what we are saying. I am posting this for others that are like minded and so Cryptic can't say I never gave them my 2cents.

Perhaps you should read the quote under my siggy.

[ruinedmirage]

Your problem is that is that you lack the imagination to see what DnD is about. Even if 4E puts certain limits it has many many choices you can make even if you use a suggested build. A custom build is a build you "invent" depending on what your goal is. You can't really do that with suggested builds as the goals are chosen for you with only a very limited choice for variation.

Anyhoot I am not interested in discussing this with you or a few others like you that refuse to even try and understand what we are saying. I am posting this for others that are like minded and so Cryptic can't say I never gave them my 2cents.

Perhaps you should read the quote under my siggy.

I agree with this, but to expand on it a little bit. In NWO, you can't exactly OPTIMIZE your TR to stay out of battle and throw knives; you're limited to what powers they present to you and can't create an efficient build to represent or even play that TR to the best of his ranged abilities.

If your GF isn't focusing on blocking most of the time, you're losing out on your daily power. What you try to make up for in imagination might end up costing you a major role in battle efficiency.

[quorforged]

Let me rephrase it then Neverwinter doesn't offer us base classes from which we can then build as we please, whether that be suggested paths or purely custom builds.

It does offer us base classes, from which we can build as we please. Subject, as in all games, to the rules of the game.

The rules of the game are simply more restrictive, and the breadth of options less than we've come to expect based on PnP (although this has not been a constant in D&D's history!). It is, however, roughly similar to other MMOs. In particular, TERA's build options (per class) are very similar to what Neverwinter appears to have. DDO's relatively faithful reproduction of a PnP ruleset is very much an outlier among MMOs.

Neverwinter offers us suggested builds with very limited customization as classes. What should have happened is that they let us choose the class then a build either custom or suggested.

Example at creation screen you choose your class, fighter, cleric, rogue etc. Now say you choose fighter, you go to another screen where you get to choose between guardian or great weapon build . This would have allowed them to add more choices like custom or other suggested paths etc.

You are arguing for something here that is different than your original post. You are arguing for an alternative game design. Whereas in the OP you are arguing against classifying the 5 classes that Neverwinter currently has slated for launch as 5 builds of 4 classes instead. These are different points.

I'm right there with you in wanting more build options. Not because it has to in order to "be D&D" or whatever, but because character building is something I greatly enjoy, and a big factor in DDO being the only MMO I stuck with. But arguing that Neverwinter currently has "builds" not "classes" is not sound.

[bantafan56]

Your problem is that is that you lack the imagination to see what DnD is about. Even if 4E puts certain limits it has many many choices you can make even if you use a suggested build. A custom build is a build you "invent" depending on what your goal is. You can't really do that with suggested builds as the goals are chosen for you with only a very limited choice for variation.

Ok, so you're disappointed you can't make the class/build combo you want? I think that may be a bit petty as they are handing us this great world to play in. Besides, there is always DDO should you prefer to do your own custom builds. Not good enough? Don't play, save us the grief.

[pilf3r]

First of all I am not arguing anything, I am simply stating my opinion. Second this opinion is not based on PnP but my experience with other video games.

I am not changing any kind of argument from my original post , I am just expressing what I was getting at with my original post.

Like I told elve I am not interested your opinions, I already know what many of your believe and you are very well entitled to your opinion.

I however do not agree with it and would rather this thread not turn into a pissing match about who is right or wrong. I posted for peeps here that agree with my views, I am not interested in any kind of debate and would rather avoid discussion with people like bantafan56 who post flamey little posts with no substance.

This isn't out of any kind hate or anything like that but simply because I would rather not be dragged down into replies like, " if you don't like it go play somewhere else and don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out" type talks.

Btw quorforged if I wanted to play something like Tera I would play that instead I would rather play something closer to DnD. You all act as if Oh noes if it was closer to DnD it would be a bad bad thing and the game would suck and OMG DOOOOM or try to find silly reason why an"argument" is invalid when in reality it is not an argument but an opinion and it's the general idea that is important and not how it was delivered. This isn't debate club and I don't really care about proper techniques.

Quorforged like I have said you are entitled to your opinion I just don't share it but please no false claims that my reasoning isn't sound. Some of what you say involves fallacies.

Anyways I will not reply anymore I have had enough of the fanboy comments every time someone expresses an opinion different to what the WOW club wants. This last bit isn't targeted at you quorforged but rather a general sentiment to explain my decrease in posts compared to before closed beta started.



We had a pretty decent community before, we didn't always agree and sometimes argued vehemently yet always you got the sense that peeps where trying to see your point of view, but it is quickly becoming like any other game forum where posting is kind of a waste of time.

Just because I would like for there to be more options does not mean I am "petty" or do not appreciate the game world, what is "petty" is coming to a thread with no other opinion than someone is "petty" because you do not agree with them.

[kimonagi]

Ok, so you're disappointed you can't make the class/build combo you want? I think that may be a bit petty as they are handing us this great world to play in. Besides, there is always DDO should you prefer to do your own custom builds. Not good enough? Don't play, save us the grief.

The good old "dont let the door hit you on your way out". We heard that before and it actually happened and now the same people that went by that philosophy are playing alone on dead servers and complaining that everyone left for a mediocre game.

Some people are impatient and just want the game to come out so that they can play it. He is saying he wish he could actually have more power over the creation of his character instead of just launching a premade with cosmetic customization. We get to choose a name and hairstyle for our characters and we should be happy that at some point we get to choose if we want to add 1% to crits, damage or armor class? Thats the amount of freedom of creation we have right now for our characters.

[quorforged]

I am not changing any kind of argument from my original post , I am just expressing what I was getting at with my original post.

OK, so you fully agree that what Neverwinter is slated to launch with is 5 classes, not 5 builds for 4 classes? You would simply prefer that there be 4 classes, which provided options for those 5 builds, and more? If so, then we are largely in agreement.

Btw quorforged if I wanted to play something like Tera I would play that instead I would rather play something closer to DnD.

I did not suggest playing TERA. I merely cited it as an example of what classes are in MMOs, by way of refuting your arguments in the OP that Neverwinter's classes aren't actually classes. But I guess that's not what you actually meant to argue, so it's tangential at this point.

Again, for most of this thread, I was not arguing that the way Neverwinter's classes are done is a good thing (I'm in fact disappointed in how limited they are). Just that they are classes.

You all act as if Oh noes if it was closer to DnD it would be a bad bad thing and the game would suck and OMG DOOOOM

I have not acted this way. I don't think anyone has suggested this, actually.

or try to find silly reason why an"argument" is invalid when in reality it is not an argument but an opinion and it's the general idea that is important and not how it was delivered.

An opinion stated with the intent of influencing others (even if it's just the Cryptic devs) is inherently an argument. If you don't want to engage in further discussion, that's your prerogative, of course.

Quorforged like I have said you are entitled to your opinion I just don't share it but please no false claims that my reasoning isn't sound. Some of what you say involves fallacies.

Actually, if the OP stated something you simply didn't mean to say, it sounds like we are largely in agreement.


Although I'm kind of curious what logical fallacies you think I used...

[kimonagi]

Since the 4th edition players handbook calls those builds can we at least call them for what they are considering that they are even more restrictive? They are level 1 basic builds:

The cleric has two basic builds to start: the battle cleric
and the devoted cleric. Clerics rely on Strength for
their melee attacks and Wisdom for their healing and
non-melee prayers. Charisma also aids their abilities.

[quorforged]

Since the 4th edition players handbook calls those builds can we at least call them for what they are considering that they are even more restrictive? They are level 1 basic builds:

The cleric has two basic builds to start: the battle cleric
and the devoted cleric. Clerics rely on Strength for
their melee attacks and Wisdom for their healing and
non-melee prayers. Charisma also aids their abilities.

4E calls them builds because that's exactly what they are: example level 1 builds, recommended for new players so they don't have to pick their own powers. They're not "restrictive" at all, because builds are literally incapable of being restrictive. They aren't rules or mechanics of any sort. Builds are merely a set of selected character creation options.

Other than their names and some thematic inspiration, 4E's example builds have very little in common with Neverwinter's classes. Which, sure, are restrictive compared to 4E's classes, but they're still classes, not builds.

[elve]

pilf3r, you asked about our opinions when you created the Thread. Also your thread is unnecessary as it says and argues about the same things as several other threads in the forum. It is an effort to make your logic stand out so it can b e more easily noticed. This is exactly the reason why people who do not share your point of view should voice their concerns about the ideas you are driving forward with this thread.

You are being unreasonable - you are dismissing every bit of logic thrown at you with just a simple "I don't care about you!".

Why is this logic dangerous and potentially harmful? You are claiming that you want more customization but that is not true. The thing you want is to make Neverwinter, a computer game, more like PnP D&D. If Cryptic decide to listen to that kind of logic they will push the release date back as they will need a lot of time to implement the changes you desire. This means more money spent on artificial changes that do not work well in a computer game anyway. This means disappointed fans who will never come back to Neverwinter. It means outdated graphics and mechanics when the game finally comes out as well.


How much is variety improved in this game by attaching a D&D character progression system to it? Not much really. Just instead of selecting your weapon to specialize in at character creation you do it at level 10 or 20 or whatever. You also have a bunch of skills that are functionally identical to choose from which is not a real choice when it comes to how your play your character.

ruinedmirage, you can do that here as well. You are given more powers that you can use at any given time and you can spend points on passive bonuses that complement one playstyle over the other. Selecting the right gear for any given situation also affects your combat performance.

The limited variety of powers and customization is an issue. However there are two ways to fix the this issue within the game. One is to throw everything out and start a new. The second is to improve upon the existing system - add more skills, make the trait point investment more meaningful, give greater significance to the ability scores that you choose, more paragon paths to choose from that affect significantly your gameplay. The second way is much easier and can happen gradually over a period of time without having the release date pushed back. Some time ago I posted a thread with a few suggestions on how to improve the Power and Trait systems and provide greater variety into the game. I also asked other forum members for suggestions on the topic and asked them to review my own. I would collect the most well-though-out ideas and add them to the op. The idea was to create a well organized Thread that provided constructive criticism on the systems and ideas on how to improve them. Shockingly no one cared though and the mind-numbingly stupid threads "this is not D&D, this should be like D&D" continued... who could have though that people are just complaining but when they are asked to provide ideas how to improve the system without destroying it completely they fall short...