Deities of New Neverwinter - Detailed

[gillrmn]

I love how they separate Clerics and Invokers in 4e by the source of their power. Like you say Clerics gain their power from ritualistic prayer and faith, Invokers are more like divine sorcerers. They are the 'chosen' of their Gods, touched in a very minor way, often as a result of immense training. They are the hands that direct the will of their God.

I had an Invoker in a 4e Ravenloft game which remains perhaps my favourite D&D character. He was an Invoker of Ioun (God of Knowledge), and he would have get strange, cryptic, divine visions that he would have to piece together to try to make sense of it and figure out what Ioun wanted of him. One day he stopped getting visions. No matter what he tried or how long he waited he just stopped getting instructions from his God. This caused him to have a kind of mental breakdown since he lived most of his life following the guidance of Ioun and without it he was lost. He was convinced that something dark and powerful was blocking his connection so he traveled the continent, trying to find this darkness. Then he found Ravenloft. *queue start of campaign*

Best thing about the character was that his lack of guidance and mental anguish meant he was easily seduced by powerful beings. He would constantly struggle against the influences of Ravenloft and would occasionally find himself siding against the party. Was friggen rad.

...man I wish we had Invokers in Neverwinter. ><

Actually not very accurate. Clerics and invokers have same power source - divine power source.

Secondly, invokers are not sorcerers but more like warlocks.

They do not exclusively get chosen/or have visions - something which is very common among few paragons of clerics too(even other classes).

Invokers are able to speak words of power which allow the divine power to enter their bodies briefly - something like a low version of Karsus when he did folly.

However, everytime they use the power, their mortal body is not strong enough to hold that power. So they get HP damage when using the words of power.

[providentt]

Actually not very accurate. Clerics and invokers have same power source - divine power source.

Secondly, invokers are not sorcerers but more like warlocks.

They do not exclusively get chosen/or have visions - something which is very common among few paragons of clerics too(even other classes).

Invokers are able to speak words of power which allow the divine power to enter their bodies briefly - something like a low version of Karsus when he did folly.

However, everytime they use the power, their mortal body is not strong enough to hold that power. So they get HP damage when using the words of power.

They both have the 'Divine' power source, yeah, but read the lore - it's divine power from different sources.

Also they're more like Wizards than either Sorcs or Warlocks. Invokers and Wizards are controllers, Sorcs and Warlocks are strikers.

The chosen/vision thing is backstory dependant. My specific character had visions. Can't say he didn't, because he did.

[gillrmn]

Just by being ordained by any church, grants you Divine Power. Gods no longer grant or deny access to Divine Power in the current state .... ...

That is also not accurate. The powers do come from ordaining by clergy, however the power comes from the god. Also it needs to be sanctioned by the deity.

If a clergy exists which has not been sanctioned by the deity, you will not receive any powers.

Divine power:

Wielding power sanctioned by the gods you are in the center of ....

Also some clergies exist which are not sanctioned by gods in official campaigns. The clerics of those clergies do not get any power from prayers.

However, a god may decide to deceive them by posing as their deity and giving them power. That way the deity can increase his domain (which is a big fight amongst deities). After you receive the power, the rank in divine power is decided by your following the dogma defined by the clergy. However, once you do receive the divine power, the deity cannot unshare it.

So they do grant access to their power, but they do not revoke it unless their cleric forsakes the deity.

Also another thing to notice is that alignment (as in purpose) is greater than deities. So if you are doing Lawful Good task, you will get help from Bahamut, Illmater, Torm equally - for alignments (in respect of purpose) are more important in 4e compared to deities.

[providentt]

Player Handbook 2 - Invoker:

The greatest of the gods’ mortal agents in that war were invokers, imbued
with a fragment of the gods’ own might to fight alongside them. No other mortal servant of the gods
can claim the same kind of power. Through rites of investiture, avengers, clerics, and paladins gain the ability to manifest echoes of that power, uttering careful prayers and channeling divine energy through their holy symbols. You, however, channel your god’s power directly. No mere symbol can contain it, for you speak the words of creation, shaping the universe to your and your god’s will.

[gillrmn]

They both have the 'Divine' power source, yeah, but read the lore - it's divine power from different sources.

Also they're more like Wizards than either Sorcs or Warlocks. Invokers and Wizards are controllers, Sorcs and Warlocks are strikers.

The chosen/vision thing is backstory dependant. My specific character had visions. Can't say he didn't, because he did.

Also the word of power thing is an Invoker Paragon Path I believe, although the base Invoker may have had a few powers along those lines.

What do you mean different sources? You mean like covenant?
Yes, as I said the Invokers make a pact - just like warlocks do - instead they call it covenant and it is with deities. And instead of damning the soul it damns the body as the power is too strong for the vessel.

As for what they are more like, if it is an analogy - they are closer to warlocks. For they form covenants - which is supernal word for infernal pact. They don't **** their souls but their life is lessened due to their bodies being incapable of the divine power they get to wield.

So divinity from clerics is replaced by covenants by invokers, replaced by Censure in avenger etc.

[gillrmn]

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/sho...l=1#post619731

Quoted for truth (it seems I can't post ASCII characters unlike you)

Clerics and invokers have same power source - divine power source.

Invokers are able to speak words of power which allow the divine power to enter their bodies briefly

Also,

Divine Power:-

Unlike divine characters who gain their power through rites of investure, invokers gain their power directly through covenants made with gods...

[providentt]

Yeah you're right about that. I would agree it fits the Warlock closer.

And yeah I mean exactly that - Invokers gain power through their 'pacts', or personal relationships with their Gods, while Clerics and Paladins gain theirs through faith and prayer. It all belongs to the 'Divine' source, but they manifest from different places in different ways.

Still. Wasn't planning on getting into this. Just wanted to mention my rad Invoker character.

[gillrmn]

....Still. Wasn't planning on getting into this. Just wanted to mention my rad Invoker character.

Not getting into it, and no comments on your character which you should follow as you see fit.

However this is an information thread where I pride myself in keeping information accurate and to help new users I have to shoot down any confusing or inaccurate part I find - whether by me or others.

[iamtruthseeker]

Gods, what are you all doing to my worshiped facts?!

Yes, (Templar) Clerics gain power from the clergy which once was granted from a divine source.

Schooled in religious traditions from childhood, templars wield divine powers entrusted to them through ordination or investiture in the service of a deity.

AVENGERS, not Invokers use "pacts."

In secret temples far from bustling cities and priestly hierarchies, orders of esoteric warriors train their initiates in ancient traditions now forgotten or forbidden by most religious organizations. The champions of these orders are avengers—deadly weapons in the hands of their gods, imbued with divine power through secret rites of initiation. In battle, avengers swear to execute divine vengeance, entering a mental state that gives them unerring focus on a single enemy.

As an avenger, you were trained in a monastery, initiated through secret rites, and imbued with the power to smite your god’s foes. You might be a disciple of Ioun, sworn to hunt and exterminate the minions of Vecna until you one day face the Maimed God. You could be an agent of the Raven Queen, bringing death to those who would defy your mistress. Or perhaps you serve Bahamut as an agent of justice, bringing ruin to tyrants and oppressors. The organizations devoted to your god might view you as a heretic or a hero, but you answer only to your god and to the vows you swore upon your initiation as an avenger.

INVOKERS gain power through divine grants.

At the dawn of time, the gods who inhabited the Astral Sea warred with the primordials of the Elemental Chaos, the mighty beings who shaped the world out of formless void. The greatest of the gods' mortal agents in that war were invokers, imbued with a fragment of the gods' own might to fight alongside them. No other mortal servant of the gods can claim the same kind of power. Through rites of investiture, avengers, clerics, and paladins gain the ability to manifest echoes of that power, uttering careful prayers and channeling divine energy through their holy symbols. You, however, channel your god's power directly. No mere symbol can contain it, for you speak the words of creation, shaping the universe to your and your god's will.

So sometimes, people gain divine power directly from the divine source, but not usually.
Even with this class that does this in 4E, it is supposed to be considered as rare as the Favored Souls of 3rd ed were.


So EVERYBODY please take a deep breath and meditate on these facts.

[gillrmn]

Gods, what are you all doing to my worshiped facts?!
- I think its semantics. Will use appropriate 4e terms here then so "pacts" and "grants" dont cause confusion.

Yes, (Templar) Clerics gain power from the clergy which once was granted from a divine source.
- Powers to all clerics are ordained by clergy, but it has to be sanctioned by the deity.

AVENGERS,
- Are also ordained by a religious order just like cleric. Their power is determined by their Zeal.


INVOKERS gain power ...
- Through covenant with deity(unlike cleric or avengers). The deity uses them as their vessel in this world.

~~~

"Pact" in correct context above referred to the 'infernal pact' which means the 'devil's contract' or something equivalent to that.
Covenant is an agreement between deity and subject which lets them use the power of deity. (Though unlike infernal pact, it does not cost your soul){opinion- invokers are comparable as divine warlocks}

Avengers are ordained by religious order too - but unlike religious order for clerics, these are usually zealous, secretive and unliked by people(due to fear). {opinion- This aptly falls under divine assassin category.}

~~~

For explanation how the cleric whose god is dead lose their divine power - check the official campaign on waterdeep in 4e. The one where you go to that inn with bucket (as in NWN second expansion) and explore the caves. It has a dead cleric of Lathander.