Man, this thread makes me wish I could flag my foundry missions as private, for friends only.
- Neverwinter Discussion
- The Foundry
- Worried about XP nerf - IOW "Why we can't have nice things" :)
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05-07-2013, 10:00 AM #31
05-07-2013, 10:08 AM #32
05-07-2013, 10:13 AM #33
I have posted on this topic so many times in the last few months... looks like it took the first few big farms to hit for people to see what the Foundry is REALLY about for most players.
Anyway, reposting something from COH... Ye Olde Historye ofe COHe Farme Storye Arce*
Let me tell you a story about farming in City of Heroes. Note that the chronology may not be 100% accurate and I may be leaving some stuff out -- but all the stuff below happened at one point. I leave the drawing of any NW foundry parallels to the reader. Don't worry if you don't get some of the COH-specific slang... the point should be clear regardless.
Back in beta and shortly after launch, there were the stock mob farms. Family and Freakshow were enemy groups that didn't have any dangerous abilities, so the farmers would set up missions with maps that allowed for a LOT of spawns to be herded together, and just ran those. These were pretty vanilla, and comparable to running some 'farmy' official content (such as the Television story arc). But this period was pretty short, as farmers discovered the wonders of custom enemy groups.
First came boss farms: boss-only enemy groups without any meaningful attacks or with very pronounced weak points. At one point Rikti comm officer farms were all the rage, too -- these guys were LT level, but were basically pushovers... so you'd have custom enemy groups consisting of nothing but them. These were very lucrative, as you'd get a ton more xp from killing a boss than a lt and a lot more xp from killing a lt than a minion, and these bosses (or LTs) were clumped together for easy AOEability. Paragon reacted by nerfing xp from custom enemy groups unless they had one spawn of each type (boss, lt, minion).
Then came the friendly mob farms: lots of friendly mobs scattered on the map set to follow the player that didn't have attacks (and thus couldn't steal xp/tickets from the player), but a whole lot of player-buffing skills (kinetics defenders were typical for this). This was pretty popular for a time, and it was effective at powerlevelling. So Paragon required all custom mobs to have a basic attack, and only allowed the FIRST ally mob from each map to cast any abilities other than the basic attack. While this nerfed this specific kind of farm, it also nerfed quite a few legitimate story arcs that had you fighting as part of a team (such as Teen Phalanx Forever, one of the best storyarcs IMO)
Somewhere along the road came another targeted nerf: cutting xp from custom enemies unless they had a certain amount of powers. The formula was pretty convoluted, but basically you had to use their 'hard' presets for best effect (except for some special cases). This eliminated a lot of unoptimized farms, but left the optimized ones (or the ones using stock mobs) untouched. Also, Paragon occasionally nerfed the xp of special mob groups.. let me tell you how great it felt when I realized that the Hydra enemies I was using for a custom story arc (they fit the story) were only giving 50% of the xp of a normal mob because everyone was farming Hydras in Perez Park circa 2006 or whatever.
Somewhat parallel to this, some farmers were making custom farms that were tailored to a specific build. Fire farms and CEBR (claws/elec brute) farms were the most common, where the damage types done by the enemies were the ones that the powersets were most effective against, and the mobs themselves were weak to the build's primary damage type. These were HUGE, and there was no easy way to handle this without severely nerfing the powersets themselves... so Paragon basically admitted defeat at this point. Even at the end of COH's life, fire farms and CEBR farms were definitely a thing... they covered most of the browser, and made up most of the "Hall of Fame" (story arcs with 1k+ plays and 5-star averages).
Ambush versions of fire and CEBR farms were also super-popular. Basically you'd set up chained ambushes to spawn lots and lots and lots of enemies on the player... which would be easily defeated without the player having to move from the entrance, or (in some cases) even just killing themselves on the player's damage shields. This was kind of reminiscent of the old 'gather every single mob on the map into a burn patch' Tanker farms of 2004-2005. Many farms used patrols instead, which had the same effect on certain maps (and would continue working even if ambushes were nerfed)
Paragon also tried the exact same thing Cryptic seems to be trying now: banning and removing farms. This was (as expected) useless, as farmers just disguised their farms as legit content ('meow' was a keyword to search for them, for instance).
During the entire life of the COH MA, there were ALWAYS farms. They were ALWAYS at the top, no matter what Paragon tried. Sure, after a patch there was a day or two when the previous farms were broken, but the authors just came up with new farms. This is basically an unwinnable cat-and-mouse game. If you take drastic measures like removing all rewards from player-created content altogether or severely limiting the editor's capabilities, you can 'win'... but in my POV, that cost is not worth it. What you need to do is let the farmers farm, let the RPers RP, let the story authors make stories, let the challenge / hack-and-slash people make their challenge maps. We're All In This Together (tm).
Bonus part, not mentioned above: the brief period between I14 and I15 (I think?) where MA badges (click x items, free y hostages, get z ratings, etcetera) were still a thing. There were thousands of storyarcs dedicated to getting the badges and nothing else. Just like farming arcs, they crowded out almost everything else from the browser, so Paragon made the decision to remove 95% of those badges (and just leave the trivially-achievable ones). Note that NW has very similar achievements, so it's very possible we'll see something like this here -- especially since the foundry achievements actually have material rewards.
* yeah, the "e"s are superfluous on purpose. COME AT ME BRO!11
Last edited by zaphtastic; 05-07-2013 at 10:15 AM.
05-07-2013, 11:00 AM #34
Ya'see, this is what I was complaining about the day or so after release when these farm quests started to show up and take away all the plays from the true content like mine and other people's great stories.
Now to correct the problem they hurt everyone. Short sighted people looking for their easy way to max level have thus ruined the foundry content even further. First they took away plays from good content, filled up all the pages of each catagory, and now they caused a big nerf to the foundry as a whole.
Bravo farmers... what part of the foundry are you going to ruin next?
05-07-2013, 11:03 AM #35
Just put a tab for "Farm" and advertise it. Let them do what they do. Keep the farms out of the general content. Like zaph says, you can't stop it. Just give it it's place so we can find the real content we want.
05-07-2013, 11:08 AM #36
05-07-2013, 11:11 AM #37
(I posted this in a different thread)
Just make mobs that cannot reach their attacker because of AI (wont walk over traps) or physical barriers give no xp and reset them. Or perhaps summon the attacker to them such as Everquest mobs used to do.
05-07-2013, 11:14 AM #38
I enjoyed both the quests, and the exp and the items, I was levling my account through other peoples quests which was awesome, I like it alot, infact you have ****ed up so much, I wont even play this anymore, I was a founder on my other account, but **** this ****. Never ever gonna buy anything just ****ing things up all the time.
05-07-2013, 11:25 AM #39
Well... You just lost 8 players, I know you could care less because it's only 8... but it's pretty pathetic that you would punish the whole community for the actions of a bunch of big mouthed streamers... You should've tested this before you went into open beta. All of my friends started playing this 'cause of the foundry since there's only one long *** story line... This game IS the Foundry. There's no other reason to play it, in reality. I have done around 12 foundries and gained two bars of xp... Which is embarrassingly horrid. Fix your ****.
05-07-2013, 11:29 AM #40
Nerfing XP to end powerleveling? I can understand that, defeats a purpose.
Nerfing Blue drops? I can understand that, stops everyone from being deck out easily.
Nerfing green drops? Hitting a grey area here, these are not hard to get outside the foundry and only serves to frustrate people as a nerf just to nerf.
Nerfing white drops? Stupid, plain and simple. No point to this AT ALL.
Nerfing gold? Now we are hitting DERP DURP DITTY DAY levels of stupid. Gold has NO VALUE, you cannot get AD with it, nor ZEN. Gold can only get you potions and injury kits and an endless supply of crap companions and mounts. It cannot ruin the economy since the economy is AD/ZEN based.
All this did was make a whole lot of people not want to do ANY foundry content at all since the cost is now less than the reward. The foundry was instantly made into nothing more than a money sink.
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