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Thread: Power vs. Armor Penetration
04-18-2013, 12:29 PM #11
04-20-2013, 02:54 AM #12
Armor Penetration has potential, depending on the defense values of mobs. The real question is what happens if Armor Penetration exceeds the mob's defense. Does it reduce defense to a negative value, essentially becoming a bonus to damage?
Based on the limited information we have now, as far as damage goes, I'd say balance Critical Chance and Armor Penetration. You'll end up with some Power whether you want it or not, but don't focus on it.
05-02-2013, 09:49 PM #13
I've been ignoring Armour Penetration entirely on my TR. I stack Power > Crit, and that's all I stack.
As for Defense vs. Deflect, you will get more consistent returns from Defense, since as already stated, it reduces ALL incoming damage by a certain amount. However, if you're a TR, and so you're stacking Dexterity (which contributes to Deflect), and since you're not stacking either defensive ability as for the most part you're avoiding damage, it becomes a little more sensible to stack Deflect (and by stack I mean, when you can't avoid taking a defensive, pick Deflect. You shouldn't stack either on a rogue ideally. Your job is to avoid damage through use of stealth. You'd be foolish to pass up extra Power/Crit for ANY defensive.)
There's a similar argument to be made about the diminishing returns on Crit. TRs get so many skills boosting their Critical, that depending on the way these modify base stats, there may not BE diminishing returns. I'd be interested to know if anyone has more to contribute to that discussion.
I'd also love to know if anyone else has more to contribute about Armour Penetration. I doubt i'm the only TR completely avoiding it. It's very rare that I don't get top DPS, even if there's another rogue in the party. But that might just be down to smarter use of skills. I could be missing out!
More info please
05-02-2013, 10:43 PM #14
I play cleric, L38 currently, and here is was I observed so far.
Power is the most important, it has good synergy in that it boosts damage and healing. Yes, cleric can do very decent damage and decent healing. I usually come out in top 3 damage wise and 1st healing wise in a dungeon (even beating out dps classes!). If there is a dedicated 2nd healer then naturally I come 2nd in healing but not by that much and the extra damage more than makes up for it. I would not recommend going pure heal as you loose a good amount of dps and don't really gain that much in healing, and potions do a great job keeping the team alive anyway. I think there may be diminishing returns as your stats get higher as well, but this is based purely on observation, doing dungeon runs with other classes and comparing results with mine.
Crit is 2nd most important as it amplifies your power stat for damage and healing as well as good synergy with cleric's stats that focus on crit.
Defense would be 3rd most important. An efficient healer that also does good dps will have agro most of the time. So you need to have good survivability.
AP and deflection are not efficient for a healer so don't bother.
05-02-2013, 11:00 PM #15Lets see Power vs Armor Penetration, it comes down to how much average armor the mobs have, the higher it is more useful AP becomes. No one knows how much armor the mobs have though.
Defence vs Deflection. Defence is a low amount of permanent damage reduction (I only got it up to about 10%). Deflection was on my Rogue a 25% damage reduction according to info window (it seem to be more like 50% in practice though). BTW there a 3 defence stat Armour Class that gives a huge damage reduction per point.
Power VS Crit forgot how much bonus damage crits did but it a lot like +75->100% damage.
The answer to what do you want? you want some of each.
For the guy who says no diminishing returns on power that kind of true as every X power adds +1 damage. But adding more power for damage reduces your DPS compared to adding that point as crit. And if a 99% damage resistance armored mob turns up your going to want AP more than anything.
The exact numbers of each we need the details IE 100 power =+1 damage 100 Crit =+1% chance 500 crit=+3% crit etc. With this info I will be able to plug the numbers in to claculations and tell you that you want to get approx 3power:2crit:1AP and 3defense:1deflection.
Scratch Defense and Deflection, and get 3:2 ratio of lifesteal and recovery instead. Seriosuly, you're in leather armor, defense and deflection aren't really going to save you, burning that MFer down in 2 sec flat will. Lifesteal will proc off every hit, and help offset your need for healing potions - basically the more damage you do, the more health you get back. And recovery will help reduce skill-use timers - meaning you can get those big hitters in more. Also, AP is a much bigger deal for rogues than for say GFs, so that ratio is going to be a bit different as well.
Summary: Trickster Rogue - 3:2:2 Crit/Power/AP and 3:2 Lifesteal/Recovery.
You can also do a gimmick, burst build of 1:1:1 Crit/AP/Recovery - which is only really useful in certain dungeon situations backed up by a solid group.
05-02-2013, 11:18 PM #16
While I do appreciate your advice, I have to point a few things. If your group is using potions to survive, then you're not doing your job. Also suggesting that an 'efficient healer' will have agro most of the time is just anti group. I wouldn't expect the TR to be in charge of healing or a cleric in charge of taking agro. Both are best to be avoided.
05-02-2013, 11:20 PM #17
I'll probably go something like this..
Critical hit = Power > armor penetration
Defence > Deflection
Regeneration > Life steal
05-02-2013, 11:57 PM #18While I do appreciate your advice, I have to point a few things. If your group is using potions to survive, then you're not doing your job. Also suggesting that an 'efficient healer' will have agro most of the time is just anti group. I wouldn't expect the TR to be in charge of healing or a cleric in charge of taking agro. Both are best to be avoided.
I never stated that my char was an "efficient healer". My char is efficient in that he can put out good dps + heals than a pure healer with low dps.
The cleric takes agro when he is efficient at his job, that's just game mechanics. You cannot control it unless you reduce dps, but then you wouldn't be efficient. As long as you have good survivability there are no issues here.
I find good dps and good heal > low dps and high heal, been verified by looking at dungeon run stats if you add dps and healing together. Try it if you don't believe me.
05-14-2013, 05:02 AM #19
Interesting discussion in here. I'm playing a GWF (currently lvl 32) and stacked Armor Pen from beginning. Character's stats are mostly Strength(23 currently) with Con(15) and Dex(17). I usually get top or 2nd in damage. I hear a lot of other people talking about how gimp the GWF is but I haven't noticed it.
I'm currently mostly Power(852) and Armor Pen(718) with a bit of Crit(378). Does great against mobs but not so well against players in PVP. I believe that's because some players don't have a lot of Defense.
Does anyone know more accurately how the Armor Penetration is calculated? Hopefully someone will unravel the calcs running in the background so we can make good decisions on the items and know where the diminishing return really falls off.
05-14-2013, 05:34 AM #20
Judging from the character sheet armor pen seems to just the the exact opposite defense and armor class rating. Im 99% certain armor pen is better than power in most cases. Armor pen = % dmg increase. The only thing that changes this is how armor behaves when reduced below 0. If players and mobs can be reduced below 0 armor there is no comparison but i have a feeling they wont allow for something like that. Im pretty sure you will have to have to run a mix of alot of armor pen and power to get the most dmg out of your character.
Im worried about some of the other posts saying there are diminishing returns on armor pen. Does anyone have a link to proof of that?
Edit: Just thought of a second way armor pen could possibly behave. Armor pen could also possibly just reduce the targets defence by whatever percentage it says on your character sheet in stead of a flat subtraction of damage reduction, which would be pretty lackluster in my opinion. I kinda want a dev to speak on this topic theres nothing we can do as players but speculate. I would rather have some hard info on the subject.
Last edited by devinnthedude; 05-14-2013 at 05:42 AM.
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